#91 - Mindful mothering and breaking cycles with School of MOM founder Sarah Harmon

Sarah Harmon  0:00  

I would say every single parent I talk to is like, I don't have time for myself. This is a reality, but also very much something that we're kind of reinforcing. We don't want to vilify these phones, but if I'm saying I don't have time for myself and I'm spending 25 hours a week on my phone, there's a disconnect there. And so I need to come at that from the lens of curiosity to be like, okay and discernment, okay and kindness, right? This is where my my screen time is. So it's getting in the way. We need to see it clearly. We're getting mad at ourselves for a product that is designed to keep us locked in. And so bringing in this awareness and kindness, and again, like the reality of the situation is such a great place to start. You know, that's huge.

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Joey Odom  0:46  

Welcome back to the Aro podcast. Hey, it's your good friend, Joey Odom, co founder of Aro, and on our day of recording today, we have just launched the Aro app as a standalone. You've had to get a box before. You don't have to do that now, you can get seven free days of ro just by downloading the Aro app. So if you're listening, and you've not done it yet, and you've been a little bit curious, you may be struggling with your phone some just go download the Aro app and try it out for seven days and see if it's something that will help you join the 1000s of others who are doing that. We can't wait to have you, and I can't wait for you to listen to today's episode with Sarah Harmon. We bring you on the Aro podcast. We bring you a lot of guests that you definitely know, people like John Delaney or Ryan Tedder for One Republic, or Shawn Johnson gold medalist. And sometimes we bring you people that you need to know, that you might not yet. And today is one of those. Sarah Harmon is the founder of the School of MOM, which is resources for moms to thrive and flourish. Whether you're dealing with maybe in a strange relationship with your mom, or maybe, like she says, you just want to Mother yourself mindfully. You may not even have the words for it that you want to Mother yourself mindfully, but for you to do some work on yourself so that you can be the most effective mom to your kids? She says, which I love. She says, the number one indicator of a child's thriving is the quality of their mother's happiness. And so we dig into that. Now Sarah is Sarah is very, very smart, and she goes into a lot of really interesting clinical information on your nervous system and how that affects you. She talks about how 95% of our subconscious is what directs our actions, and that all occurs in the body. So you get into the nervous system, we have a moment in there where I relay an experience from this past weekend with one of my kids that was a little bit jarring for me. You'll forgive a few tears that I shed while we were talking about it, but Sarah has a really neat way of slowly disarming somebody and getting to the core of the matter, and that's what she did with me, and I believe that's what she'll do with you as well. So I'm very grateful for Sarah for her wisdom on the podcast today, and I know you're gonna enjoy it. One other important note, yes, this is the School of mom that she talks about, but this is not just for moms. This is for human beings. It's not just for dads or parents. This is for you as a healthy individual. So you're going to like this no matter who you are. Again, her programming is specific for moms. This conversation is for anybody. So for now, sit back, relax and enjoy my conversation with Sarah Harmon, you music gang, take your seats because class is in session. Welcome to the school of mom. Your instructor today is a Leslie educated straight shooting BS call her outer she's been active in San Diego, an iron woman in New Zealand, and a bean counters bride in Beantown while Ben Affleck robs banks in the town where she lives, she makes deposits of goodness in your mental bank account. When she's not in Warrior pose, she's in Warrior mode for moms. When she's not screaming in a field, she's speaking words of wisdoms to families all across the world. Get ready to untether and flourish with our guest, your professor for the next hour, founder of the School of mom Libby and Sage's mindful Mom, it's Sarah Harmon. Hey, Sarah Harmon,

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Sarah Harmon  4:09  

that was incredible.

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Joey Odom  4:13  

And then we got it. Let's let people in. So on the town, I hope you know I'm not just referring to Boston, like, I'm actually talking Charlestown, which is where it says, so I went. I mean, we're, like, deep in the Boston geography here, right?

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Sarah Harmon  4:25  

Oh, yeah, yeah. I actually used to live on a street that Ben Affleck, like, drove down in the town, like, amazing, through Boston local.

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Joey Odom  4:35  

Did you ever dabble in bank robbery? Did you ever jump in, jump in the game? No, but you never did. Maybe I should. Yeah, it's not too late. Absolutely. You're getting, you're, you're becoming a little bit too well known. You'll have to have a good mask, yes, but, but, but maybe, Sarah, it's so good to see you. You and I have known each other for a few months, and I remember the first time we spoke, I said, I have to, I have to let the world and. R podcast here, Sarah Harmon, because it is, I said at the beginning, a BS collar outer and a straight shooter, which you are, but it's just it, the way you communicate and the way you're so lasered in on moms is, I think you have such a voice for moms to hear and and I think for this discussion, this is about moms. This is for moms, but I'm really hoping for the dads listening. I hope you can just sit in on the sidelines, you're auditing the course here, and just listen in and see maybe learn a little bit about your spouse and learn about ways you can support your spouse. So I would love for that. We didn't talk about that but, but I would Is it okay if some dad sit in here and listen as well? Is that okay? 1,000%

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Sarah Harmon  5:37  

you know, the School of Mom, mom stands for mothering ourselves mindfully. And while I do primarily work with moms in the School of Mom, this work is about mothering ourselves, and we all need that you can reframe it to parenting yourself, nurturing yourself, taking care of yourself. And I will say every single mom in my community, and some, more than others, are repetitively saying, my husband needs this. My husband, when are you and I actually bought the URL the school of dad. However, it's a different approach, right? So I'm kind of poking my male colleagues that are in the same type of work to start a community for dads that's similar, because it's so important. Yeah,

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Joey Odom  6:21  

it is, believe me, we need it. And and I will fully agree we all need to be mommed. Sometimes that's a good thing for us. And so that is a great thing. And I, yeah, I think, I think that your message again, for moms. I know you do like you said, you speak differently. It's a little bit different approach, but everybody can learn something from here. So to your point, and everybody will say on anything, oh, I wish my fill in the blank could hear this, my mom, my son, my daughter, my my husband, whatever it is. So this is your opportunity for the listener to take this and just forward it on, like at the end of it, forward it on and say, hey, please listen to this, whether it's to your husband or your wife, whoever that may be. So I want to start with your story, because you say, and we'll get into everything, everything it means, and everything you're focused on. But your story, you say, the School of moms started with your experience, not as a mom, but as a daughter. Will you tell us a little bit of that story and what led you to this and your experience as a daughter that led you to want to talk to moms?

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Sarah Harmon  7:18  

Yes, yeah. So it's a story of heartbreak and then hope. I would say, when I was in grad school over a decade ago, I was, unfortunately, my family had a family crisis with my mother. So my mother had a true psychotic break. It was I was wrapping up my master's in clinical mental health counseling, reading about psychosis and my mom was my my best, you know, example, unfortunately and the irony of it was that the weekend I got my diploma to be a mental health therapist, my mom was involuntarily committed to a mental health hospital for the first time. And it's one of those life moments, Joey, where you know you're like, I don't know what to feel right now. I know this is the turning point in my life and my work, but like, almost, like, what universe like, what is what are you doing? So that was really the beginning of, you know, a deep dive into understanding, I think, my own lack of mothering and, you know, unpacking, how that was influencing my ability to, I guess, take care of myself. And then, of course, I became a mom, and everything got more accentuated and was really in my face. So I really had to learn, you know, my dad says this in a great way. He said, You know, you went to Leslie, as you mentioned, for your master's in mental health counseling. And I really got my PhD in my mom, I really understood that level of mental illness. But then, of course, was, you know, forced into the deep end of of a mindfulness practice and a self compassion practice and a mother mothering myself practice because of that, because of that family crisis. Obviously,

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Joey Odom  9:07  

you were at a point before she she was she was admitted you had, you were already in school for it was it an experience? I'm sure that. I'm sure growing up, and I'm again, feel free to share whatever you would like to and withhold whatever you'd like. But I'm sure getting up to that point, it couldn't have been healthy if, even if she crescendoed up to that, I assume so. Were you initially interested in mental health because of things you had seen in your mom as you were growing up?

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Sarah Harmon  9:33  

You know? It's an interesting answer and question, because I think everyone you know, I have a group specifically for moms who have a strained or non existent relationship with their mom, and the narrative the story of many of those women is that they had this was ongoing from when they were younger. You know, we could talk about this. This could be the whole podcast talking about this question. You know, my upbringing was really good. You know, my family for all intents and purposes. Was really healthy. I have two siblings, but Hindsight is 2020, on a lot of things. You know, looking at my mom and I have so much compassion for her. Now, she was a young mom. She had my older sister in her early 20s, and really gave up her career. But, you know, kind of by choice, but kind of not by choice, and there was a lot of drinking in her family and in her life. And so there was some flavors of dysfunction and mental struggle. But nothing, you know, nothing like what we experienced at that time, when there was this acute issue and so, but now I've really understood as an adult and doing the work that I do as a student, but also as a teacher, that in many ways, there was a lot of needs of mine that were unmet on the emotional side, which I think most of us can really relate to. You know, we talk about now that one of I think I've heard this, you probably have as well, that generational wealth is like emotional regulation and self awareness. And for many of the women I work with, whether they had a strange relationship or not with their mom, there was a lack of attunement to emotions when we were younger. They just didn't have the language or the skills or the awareness to be able to be with their own emotions. And so how could you be with your kids, right? So I think that was present for many of the moms I work with, but for me now realizing that my mom, you know, definitely was disconnected from her body, drank a lot, you know, and it's her journey with mental health, she was never open to getting treatment, so it was hard to get a diagnosis. But you know, there was some personality stuff in there for people that are listening that, you know, have a mental illness in their family. You know, it would be, you know, borderline. There were some borderline tendencies, some alcoholism, and so, you know, when did, when did that start? I think it was a little bit later in life, to To be honest, it wasn't so present in the early days, and yet, there was definitely some disconnection there. I don't

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Joey Odom  12:09  

know if I'll exactly have the words for this, but even as you're saying that, I just it just strikes me, and I think one, one thing that you're very good at in your practices is being direct, being straightforward, but also having grace and having no shame along with it. And I just think about this whole idea of how difficult it is just to be, you know, just just even to exist right, to to keep your head on your shoulders, and then you layer on a dependency of children beneath you. You have children, and then all of a sudden they're looking to you as the guide and the lighthouse, to put it in Bostonian terms, and, you know, New England terms, like they're, you're their lighthouse, and you're their guide for them. And so it's just, it's just hard. I mean, let's think about what moms all the pressure that goes on, and then let's layer on top of that a tendency, particularly for moms, and not to over generalize, but for moms to be so hard on themselves, and then, so you're, you're, you're trying to be, you're trying to set a good example, and then you're judging yourself non stop for what you only perceive as shortcomings, right? So that's a, that is, I don't know if there's a, I don't know if there's a question in there, Sarah, but it's, it's just, this is a big topic that you're tackling that affects all of us, right?

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Sarah Harmon  13:20  

I mean, the big topic is shame, right? And I think, you know, everyone listening can relate to the term mom guilt, at least the moms can. And of course, there's we can talk about, why is there no dad guilt? Term,

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Joey Odom  13:31  

right? Dad guilt?

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Sarah Harmon  13:35  

Yeah. And I like to get really clear on calling out what we're talking about. And 99% of the time, it's not actually guilt, it's shame, right? So guilt is I did something bad. Guilt is actually a really healthy emotion to keep us on our moral compass, right? If I stole from you, Joey and I felt guilty, that's a good thing, because I don't want to be someone who steals, right? I did something bad. Yet, if I am a mom and I decide to get a babysitter on a day off, potentially, or a day where I just, you know, I could be with my kids having quote, unquote special time, but I decide I'm going to go do something for myself, and I feel guilty about that. If I challenge myself or a mom, and I say, Are you doing something wrong? They're like, No, no, I'm not, but I feel bad because shame is the I am bad. I'm a bad mom. I'm a bad parent for taking a day off by myself when I could be with my kids. And that shame is pervasive. It's so toxic and shame, actually, there's a woman. Her name is Karen Anderson, and she she she has some wonderful resources out there for moms who are women who have narcissistic moms on unhealthy relationships. And I love the way she said this. I love a good metaphor. And she said, shame is like an appendix. Right? We don't really need the appendix anymore, right? And shame is one of those emotions, like all emotions are good, right? The full spectrum of emotions are healthy, except for shame, because shame actually doesn't really serve a purpose right now. And yet, there is this generational baton that we've had handed to us of shame, especially in the mother line, right? So this is not just something that we hear our mother speak, but shame can also it does not it not can. It does live in the body, and we are, you know, tuning forks always, especially when we're little. So we're tuning into mom's shame, whether it's around her body or her relationship, or what happened or didn't happen in her career, or how much she's drinking or not drinking, right? All of these things like we are picking that up as CO regulating humans. And so shame is the is, is the hot topic at the core of what I teach well.

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Joey Odom  16:02  

And you said it you you touched on it right there. And I want to dig into it just a little bit more. Let's go back to the example of the the mom who takes a self, you know, self care Day a day, to think of herself, but feels the shame as a result of it. Where is she getting that idea that she just did something wrong? Where are these? Where are these? Where is she picking up these? I'll, let's call them self, self imposed expectations. But she got them from somewhere, right? So where? Where are moms specifically? Do you where do you think they're getting these, these expectations that say, No, this is how you do it, and if you do anything different than you were bad?

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Sarah Harmon  16:37  

Yeah, I think it's the the old nature nurture conversation, right? Is that it's coming from multiple places. There's definitely a cultural and a systemic influence for sure, right? Patriarchy, capitalism, racism, right, all of these external forces that are molding and shaping our beliefs around ourselves and how we relate to our people in the world around us, right? And what was modeled for us, which, of course, is our parents. It was they were involved in being shaped by their cultures and their systems, but yet they there's a uniqueness too to our genetic line, for sure. So it's a combination of both. And you know, we know that, you know genetic expression is you, who you spend the most time around, right there that is going to influence what parts of your genes are expressed. So if you're around someone who has a ton of shame, then that's gonna, you know, it's gonna bring that part of you up to the surface. Now, of course, if you you might have some shame in your family, but maybe you have a really shame proofed human influence in your life when you're growing up. And I hear this story, you know, someone might have an aunt or a teacher or some sort of presence in their life that actually really counters that, you know, we can then that's that that nurture, that nurture conversation, is that it can really shape someone in the other direction.

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Joey Odom  18:13  

Let's go into that for a minute on what you're kind of talking about, I believe, is, is these new what you talk about, new intergenerational patterns for your kids. We tell us just, I think people maybe, by definition, understand what that means. But one question is going to lead into it is, can you actually change these generational patterns? And so you you say here like, okay, you can create new intergenerational patterns for your kids. So we help us understand what does that actually mean. And then, you know, how can we actually begin to form some of those patterns in our kids?

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Sarah Harmon  18:45  

Yeah, so, you know, Joe, you said in your intro, like, classes and session, it's really hard for me to take my teacher hat off. And I actually, I would love the opportunity to teach a little bit on something. Another thing that you touched on, which is, like, we're not really taught how to be a human being, like, we don't really understand what it means to be a human being, right? And I sometimes say, like, the school, mom is, is the teachings that you never got as a human and I actually have a module that talks about the class is called being human, right? So, just like high level and some people that have been in therapy, you know, or are well read, which I'm sure people that are listening this podcast are mindful people, and they are seeking to be more conscious, right? So some of this may be very repetitive. I also know we learn through repetition, so I hope that this is offers something, at least a reminder for some people, right? So right now in our bodies, there is a lot happening, and we are responding to events and circumstances all the time, right? So there's events and circumstances, either outside of us or inside of us, meaning, you know you're an event or circumstances that you and I are having a podcast. It could be like what I'm seeing, what I'm hearing, anything in my external environment. So it could be a sensation that I have in my body, like I have to go the bathroom, or there's a pain in my shoulder, or I've noticed this thought, right? All of those are happening all the time now, then there's this cascade of activity inside of us that isn't linear, but what's happening is, is we're having thoughts, right? 50,000 plus thoughts a day to that are in reaction to all of these external, internal circumstances and events. When we're thinking, there is a biochemical reaction happening in our body, that is an emotion, right? And all of us are having them all the time. There's different schools of thought, but there's you know, 80 ish emotions, I think it's like, there's, you know, emotion research is fascinating to me. We can include some resources, and then every single person feels the emotion in a different way, right? So emotions and feelings are actually different. We use them interchangeably, but I think it's really important to discern between what the difference is. So for example, Joey, if you were like, you know, we talked about emotions before we started recording, if you're like, I'm feeling really sad, and I'm like, Okay, awesome. Sadness is the emotion. But how do you feel sadness? And you might be like, Well, my eyes start to overflow, and, you know, my shoulders sag a little bit, and maybe I feel a little tingling in my stomach, and I'm like, Cool. And then I bring my partner in and, well, he would claim he doesn't feel sad, but he does. And I'd say, Okay, this is sadness. How do you feel sadness? And he might be like, Well, I kind of, you know, disconnect a little bit. And, you know, a big one too, of course, with emotions and feelings, is anxiety. Everyone feels anxiety in their own unique way. Yes, there's similarities, and we can actually see this on body scans around specific emotions, right? Where different parts of the body are showing different types of sensation, but everyone has their own unique felt sense of an emotion, right? And then, of course, when we're feeling something or driven to act or not act, right? So this is kind of flavors of CBT, of course, or really at the heart of this is CBT, but also mindful discernment, really looking at this process in with curiosity, and then when we make an action, there's an outcome. Right now, I think the most important thing when we talk about intergenerational healing patterns is that what we really the work, the heart of my work. And, you know, I'm coming into the fifth year of the school mom, and lot longer than that, my own personal practice, practice is we have to center the body at this conversation. Because I think even with CBT, there's such a focus on the thoughts,

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Joey Odom  22:34  

yeah. CBT, by the way, being cognitive behavioral therapy. Cognitive

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Sarah Harmon  22:37  

behavioral therapy, yes, this evidence based therapy that you know everyone. I think if you're in therapy, you've probably done some, whether you know it or not, and yet we're our thinking is happening in milliseconds. So even with a mom, if I'm like, Okay, well, let's think about the thoughts when you go, when you go and do that self care day. Let's talk about helpful thoughts for you mom. And she's like, Okay, well, in this conversation, I can identify self care is good for me. This is going to make me a better mom. I need this. But then in the moment, her body is telling a different story, because 95% of our experience is driven by our subconscious, and our body is where the subconscious lives. So when I think about moms and parents, we're all like, give me the most efficient route to healing. Okay? And I'm like, why would we focus on the thoughts that 5% area, when 95% of the time we actually probably don't have access to a conscious thought because our body is in a nervous system state. And here's the conversation, this is the nervous system. So our body has these imprints in our nervous system, and that is something that is very much part of this generational baton piece. Right? Of course, there is a nurture conversation, right? When, for example, when you're younger and you're feeling an emotion, and you are looking for your caregiver to attune to you and and help you understand that that emotion A is valid, and you're still loved for having that emotion, and you don't get that the body experiences that as trauma, right? That is a that is a traumatic event. And so we have these adaptations that actually are really, you know, at the as they evolve, they're really unhelpful for us. And so again, I could just start going on into the the importance of we have to tend to the source, right? The source. How many of us in our own healing journeys have been like reaching up here and then ultimately we're like, Oh, interesting. You know, for me, for example, I have had two knee surgeries on my left knee for probably 15 years. I was like, going in, PT, they were like, working on my knee. Blah, blah, blah. As a yoga teacher, I finally realized, like, I have bunions on my feet, and my left foot is unstable. We not one. PT asked me to take off my shoes, and the foot is connected to the knee, wow. So the source is the foot. That's what's causing the knee, right? So that's one of so many examples, I think, where we actually say, Wait a second. You know, even mindfulness, we're reaching for your phone, right? Okay, well, I'm struggling to be mindful, right? Or I want to be mindful, and I sit down and I'm trying to meditate. And ultimately, if your body is in a nervous system state that isn't supporting presence a by the way, it's just doing the best it can right, our nervous systems are so incredibly wise. They're just trying to keep us safe. So we can't think our way into a different way of being. We have to feel our way into a different way of being, right? So I've now gone into this speaking tangent. And I think when it comes to shame, shame, the feeling of shame in the body is a really uncomfortable one, right? And so this in the School of mom, I actually before I even teach the nervous system and teach our roots and how that is playing out today, right? I teach mindfulness, because we can't be present with discomfort and really gnarly thoughts, right? Without mindfulness, because we will never get out of that dysregulation, right? So we need to be able to access the seat of curiosity, which comes from a different state of the nervous system, in order to tend to and heal these parts of ourselves that are, you know, rooted in our lineage, but also are really not serving us. Does that help?

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Joey Odom  26:53  

It does. And it brings up, it brings up more questions, one as a statement. And I think this should actually be a comfort to people listening, because this is that this requires time and it requires work, right? I think, like, embedded in all this, like, this is going to be a really great intro. It's like we're reading maybe part of the syllabus to the school of mom here in this in this podcast. But it's, again, I think it's a comfort to recognize that this is a long journey that does require intentionality, does require work. So we're not going to get all the answers here, but I do have, I do have a bunch of of questions. One of them was, will you go a little bit first for foundation? Will you talk about, we all hear the word mindfulness? Will you give us a little bit from, from Sarah Harmon, like, how do you define mindfulness? Maybe that's part one of that question. And then part two of that question is like, what does that practice look like for somebody who is interested in like, Okay, I want to be mindful. What the heck do I do now? Yeah,

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Sarah Harmon  27:51  

thank you for asking that. So my definition of mindfulness is present moment awareness with all events and experiences. So back to my little teaching around being human. All events and experiences are anything outside of us, like your kid throwing a tomato at your face, your partner leaving his mug on the counter for the 90th time,

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Unknown Speaker  28:17  

and internal events

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Sarah Harmon  28:20  

and internal events and experiences are thoughts, sensations, you know, emotions, any internal activity. So present moment awareness, with all events and experiences with some key components. The first is curiosity, right? Curiosity is one. The second is, you know, you may hear in the mindfulness world, non judgment. And I do use that, but I actually use the word discernment, because sometimes judgment is really good actually, like, we kind of give judgment this bad rap, but it's, it's when you're a mom and your kid all of a sudden is, I don't know if someone comes up to them and you're like, that person is bad. That's a good like that judgment is really healthy in that moment, right? So I think discernment is actually the the more important practice, which is the pause and the processing of Wait. Is this serving me or not? Is this actually helpful or not? Is this healthy or not right? So curiosity and discernment, and then the last two components are acceptance and and and kindness or self compassion. So let me touch briefly on acceptance. The opposite of acceptance is resistance. So when I say acceptance, this is, by the way, acceptance is one of the ones that the women I work with have the hardest time with, because there can be this false belief that acceptance means just like throwing up your hands and just saying, Well, again, it's kind of an apathy like, oh well, it's just this is how it's going to be. My kids always going to act this way, or my partner is always going to act this way, right? And that's not what I mean by acceptance. I really frame it in this lens of the opposite of resistance, because. Because in the moment when your partner has left the mug on the counter, it's there, the mug is there in that present moment. So you can either resist it, right and wish it were different, which, in the foundational teachings of mindfulness, is the root of suffering. By the way, it's suffering is to resist or crave what is present, and the opposite is acceptance, of saying, okay, the mug is on the counter. Ooh, I'm curious about what this is bringing up in me, right? I'm curious that actually, I'm discerning between, oh, I'm having some feelings and I'm having these thoughts, right? And then the last piece of mindfulness, which, you know, I always say on every podcast, every class, every drop in session I do in anybody's program, I always mention self compassion, because self compassion, self kindness, are a core component of mindfulness, and a lot of people don't Talk about them, but you cannot be truly practicing mindfulness. If you're not welcoming in kindness, it's just a key component. What

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Joey Odom  31:08  

does that look like? Yeah. So

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Sarah Harmon  31:10  

kindness a great, tangible way to practice this is through a practice called meta. So if anyone's heard of meta meditation, it's it's befriending, it's a loving kindness meditation. And so kindness means, you know, how would I speak to someone else in this way? And I like to use meta, which starts with the term or the phrases, may I so with moms I work with, I call it BYOB. It's bring or, sorry, a Byom. Bring your own meta Byom, which is, at any point you know your partner is doing something, your kids doing something. You're stuck in traffic, your body's doing something. You can take a moment to befriend and make a kindly wish for yourself, such as, may I have patience with myself, or may I acknowledge this is a hard moment, or may I be kind to my body right now. And so kindness, you know, kindness is like we're really good at doing it for other people. So I think when we when we use that lens of, what would I say? How would I and this is where mothering, or parenting, is so potent for this work, because you're learning it alongside you're learning how to mother and be kind to your kids. And we just need to flip the subject, right? So I don't know about the listeners or you joy, but when I became a mom, there was not a switch. I was not like, I'm not that woman. I actually didn't even know if I wanted kids, I was like, I used to get annoyed when people would bring their kids to like events before I was a parent, I was like, Ah, really. You know, I just was I babysat when I was younger, but whatever. So I had to learn tenderness. I had to learn that touch of a newborn, and that bouncing and that voice, that tone, right, that was that was soft, and we can do that for ourselves, because we know actually how to access it in a way that we may have not for many of us before we became a parent, and that's why this work is I think people are much more a they need it more when they become a mom or A parent, but B, it's more accessible, because they're like, oh, wait, mothering myself is a is a practice that I'm learning by mothering my kids. Right?

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Joey Odom  33:30  

Think we grow this is just, you know, fixed versus growth mindset, where people would say, like, Oh, I'm not compassionate. I'm not I'm not like you just you make these declarative statements about yourself, which, in a way, it's almost like I can see a parallel between guilt and shame, where shame is something that you say is fixed I am, versus guilt I did. And so it's almost as if you're kind of identifying yourself. You're identifying somebody who is not compassionate when you just said, No, hold on. You can learn that, and you can, you can grow into that. And I think that's as you're I assume, like there are so many barriers we set up for ourselves. We're not again, 95% of the way we act as subconscious, and so things that we don't even know are around. But it's almost as if we have to really begin, like hearing what words we're saying. It's almost like what you're saying like standing on the outside of yourself and hear yourself saying something like, Well, I'm just, you know, I'm just not compassionate. Hold on one second. That's not, that's something you can learn, right? So I love what you're saying is like, this is a this is a learning and this is the work I'd like. Actually, if you have any comments on that, I have a separate question, maybe that's slightly related.

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Sarah Harmon  34:30  

Well, you know what? I'm a big metaphor person, as I mentioned. And I use the for the school mom and the work we do. I use the metaphor of the garden. And I'm, are you a gardener? Do I see a plan? I

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Joey Odom  34:42  

am not my thumb withholding you seeing my black thumb here?

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Sarah Harmon  34:45  

Yeah, so mine is still relatively black, even though I have a garden, I'm trying. I'm trying, right? But it's fun, because I've been using this metaphor for a while, and now I actually am I have a garden. And one of the things that's so interesting about this metaphor is i. You know, if you say, Okay, I use the metaphor that we you are a garden. I am a garden, right? And we get to, first off, come to the garden that is us with with curiosity, and be like, what's happening here? What is the soil i What's in my nervous system? What is the what is my foundation here? Right, from my programming, from my lived experience, and that anyone's garden can be shifted and evolved. So this speaks to your time comment, which I think is so important, because nature is the best teacher. Sometimes, like, for example, I'm learning this right gardeners now can, like, send, befriend me and send me all their tips. But like, asparagus and azaleas, for example, take the growth period before you have a bloom is long, right? It's like, at least three years, I think, for an Azalea. And no one gets mad at the Azalea, right? Everyone's like, oh, well, it just takes three years. And yet we get pissed at ourselves for like, oh, here I am yelling again. Or, you know, we don't realize that the roots of that yelling, the what, the nervous system, foundation that is leading to the yelling, right? Really needs some tending. And so with the garden analogy, it's like, well, I would love if my garden was thriving and weeded without me going into it, and I could hire someone. But when it comes to our body, there's only so much we can outsource. There's only so much we can outsource. So it takes time. It takes tending. And you know, my garden looks very different this year than it did last year, and it will look very different five years from now, because I'm learning and I'm also shifting my habits of how I'm getting into the garden to tend to it.

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Sarah Harmon  36:46  

The why is pretty simple. It's I want to be more present and engaged with my kids. And I had tried multiple interventions myself. I tried the iOS screen time, and I tried to just put my phone in my room. I tried to even lock it in like a safe so I didn't have access to it. But, you know, it was like, it was always calling me back, and it was all, there was always a reason to go back there. It was the combination for me with the Aro being, being something that I could just go put it away in and forget it, and then I really do. I'm incentivized by, you know, by reaching goals. You know, I'm a I'm a creature of habit. I'm a goal setter. I like to reach some of those goals, and the gamified piece of that ro adds to it. I think really did call to me as well, and that was that extra layer that I needed. I mean, I've been able to put my my phone away in my room, but still called to it with this. It was like I wanted to reach some of the goals. And I think that helped me really kind of shift my mindset, to be able to then, you know, focus on what I need to do and put that phone away.

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Joey Odom  37:43  

We love hearing stories from the Aro community. The one you just heard actually comes from our voices of Aro episodes where I sit down with ro members and they share about their stories and their lives with Auro. Make sure to check out the voices of ro episodes, and if you remember who would like to share your own story with Auro, please email us at stories@goro.com this is what you just said. Is not just that it takes time or that it You didn't just say this can take time. You said it necessarily has to take time, that that's what I heard in that is like you, it has to take time or there's no way to short circuit it. I had a conversation with one of my kids the other day, and it was, it was, it was a hard conversation where they brought up when, when they were younger. They remember a couple times when I yelled at them, and it really made it like a deep in print. My kids are teenagers now, and they told me they actually confided me. They had shared that with in with a counselor. And so I was appreciative of it. And the first thought, Sarah was, of course, like, was shame, like the first thought, like, that was the first feeling I had. It was just like, it was very, very hard to hear. And this is not me. This is where it's hard, in a way, like talking about this, it's, it's like, I don't want to let myself off the hook, because we're our own worst critics. I don't like why should I? Who am I to forgive myself for something that I did to somebody else? Does that make sense. Maybe just, just segwayed into therapy session here. But what I did that night, what I did that night was I went in and I said, Hey, I want to tell you something. I am they, by the way, when they brought it up, they weren't saying it judgmentally to me. They weren't saying, Dad, you need to fix this. They were just telling me. And I said to them at night, I said, Hey, I just want to tell you I'm sorry. I just want to tell you that you are so not deserving of that, and you should that shouldn't be your expectation, and I'm just really sorry. So So made the apology, but then I also had to, at the same time, Sarah, reconcile inside myself that that what? That's not me today, yeah, and I'm not perfect today, and I'm still working on myself, and I'm gonna have slip up, but they're not as frequent, and I believe that I am growing. So what I just described, maybe, the thing is, and I haven't verbalized, that is just me. This is on Sunday, and here we are on Tuesday, so I'm kind of processing this as I'm talking about it with you. That idea that jumped out as I said, that was. Who am I to forgive myself for something I did to somebody else?

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Sarah Harmon  40:04  

Yeah, and now fix me? Yeah? Well, I

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Sarah Harmon  40:07  

mean, I guess so my question to you is like, well, what's the alternative, right? So, not forgiving yourself? What's that going to do for you?

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Joey Odom  40:16  

That that probably is maybe, I think my answer to that would be just a, maybe a constant trying to make it right, or almost like a constant groveling or an apology daily. Or, do you know what I mean, like that? That's probably what it looks like, I think is how I play it out.

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Sarah Harmon  40:33  

We know with parenting, you know, we can have all the scripts in the world, and yet modeling, is it right, what we model is it, and you being able to model and teach to your kids that you are so imperfectly, imperfect, right? And that anger is a healthy emotion, but yelling at them was not healthy. That was not who you want to be. Right is that they're going to actually learn from your open, vulnerable consciousness that you're bringing to that right? And they're going to say, Wait a second, whoa. Okay, so now Dad is educating me around his anger, because he's really reckoning with it, right? You can start to understand. They can start to understand that the body sometimes, like when you yelled, that wasn't, you know, we can say that we had a choice in that moment. But again, that is your nervous system dominating in a in its the only way it knows how, right? And so I think you openly talking about that is one profound for parenting, right? But also around the forgiveness piece is, you know, remember modeling, yes, like for you personally, forgiveness in self, compassion are so impactful for our well being on all levels, right? So you just like, if we remove your kids out of it, staying in lack of forgiveness or resistance or berating yourself, right? What that's going to do for your health is just, it's that's not what you want to do, right? It's not going to do any good, right? That was kind of my, my cheeky question, well, what is it doing for you? Actually, it's only going to keep you in dysregulation. It's not going to do anything for self growth or evolving your consciousness, right? And it's like, you're, you're trying not to be a human being, right? Like, wow,

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Joey Odom  42:31  

oh, that's good. All right. So

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Sarah Harmon  42:33  

my two of my favorite words are, of course, if you you wouldn't say this to your kids, but if you take a moment and you're like, go back to that time when you yelled, which you probably don't even remember, yeah, and you think about the stressors in your life, the skills you had at the time, what was modeled for you when you were growing up, what you were able to have access to in terms of resources, you actually would say two words to yourself. You'd be like, of course, I yelled. Of course I did. Wow, did I want to? Or do I want to in the future? No, but in that moment, gosh, of course I yelled. And you do? You sense the softening in that this like holding this version of Joey, the versions of Joey that were present in that moment with such curiosity and compassion and acceptance, which

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Joey Odom  43:22  

I can, I actually think that I can. I can do that. It's like when I think back, as I hear I'm 44 I think about, let's think about 32 year old dad, Joey, and just trying to figure out what the heck he's doing and work and stress and all that kind of stuff. It's almost like I do he's like a young he's a he's to me again, he's 32 I'm 20 years older now, like, he's a boy, you know, I'm a young dad and I'm a boy, and it's just like, I want to, like, sit there and just give him a hug. It's actually gives me a little emotional talk about, like, I just want to give him, I want to give him a hug and just say, man, it's okay. Like, of course, you're doing that. This is really hard. And I could do that. I can actually, I can actually take a step outside of myself, because it's not my present self, and have compassion on that guy and tell him it's gonna be okay. And to your point, earlier, I want to for my kids. I don't want them to hang on to stuff like that. If my one of my kids were going through something like that, I'd be like, Hey, it's okay. This is what you did. Make It Right, and then you're gonna have to trust that other person you're in a relationship with if that relationship is strong enough to you for you to get through it and move on, because it would be miserable. I mentioned, I described the groveling version of myself. That's a that's miserable to be on the other side of that. It's like, please stop apologizing. I already said you're okay, you know what I mean. And

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Sarah Harmon  44:37  

then apologizing is going to come from that shame, right? I'm about I'm trying to prove to you, even though I don't believe it, I'm a good person. Yes, I'm a dad, right? So, you know, I said those two levels. There's one the forgiveness and the loving and the compassion to yourself, which was so amazing that you just did that, by the way, that for yourself is you. Profound for a, your own consciousness, B, the reality of your humaneness and C, for your growth and your well being. Now we welcome in two nervous systems, or, you know, three, because you have two kids, you said in in a, in a dialog, like from nervous system to nervous system, by the way, right? The felt sense, right? These animal bodies responding to each other in a space while when you yelled, if you think about the state of your nervous system when you yelled, that was very dysregulating for your kid, that did not feel safe when you enter the room and you own your experience how you felt, and that it was not how you wanted to do, and that that the way they feel is so safe. Oh my gosh, I'm with someone who can own their stuff and that and survive it and still come out on the other side as, like, a really good dad and like they still love themselves, right? I mean, this is so the school of mom. I said mom stands for mothering ourselves mindfully. That's really important. That word ourselves, because we are. If this is the parts conversation, another evidence based treatment in the therapy world is internal family systems. There's a great book called No Bad parts. I welcome you to read it. And we are multiple parts. You are that younger dad, right? So when I say mothering ourselves mindfully, I invite the women in my community, invite the people listening to get curious around the multiple selves that exist in them, in them, right? We and and I actually have a kind of a fun quiz called discover your dominant internal voice and how it shows up in your role as a mom. And I highlight four selves that I think everyone can relate to. One is anxiety. I call her Gina. Two is the shame the inner critic. Her name is Beth. Three is my planner. This is the one that loves grabbing my phone, by the way. Her name is Polly. She's very type A. And then the fourth is Nancy. She's the glass, half empty negative. What's the point? Right? And all of these parts of myself have evolved over time. And you know, this is, I want to be conscious of time, but I teach this around. You know, each of these selves has a corresponding nervous system state, and that's the really interesting piece. Is, like Nancy, this kind of negative, dissociated type of state. She actually lives in my nervous system in something we'd call dorsal vagal. It's a it's a polyvagal theory state that some people may understand, whereas Gina lives in sympathetic right. And now we have this language and this understanding of what's happening in our body. And so you can say, Wait a second, that dad, when I screamed, not only was I a younger dad, but there was a part of me, there was a self that was at the front of the bus of my life, so to speak. You know, I kind of used that analogy of, like, who's on the bus in your in your consciousness, right in your subconsciousness, and then we can start to really love that part of ourselves because they're there. Like, if you think about being in a confined bus with all the parts of you and your anger steps on and you're like, I'm not gonna talk to it. Guess what? It's still on the bus. Like, we might as well get into the seat with it and be like, Hey, what's going on for you? And that's what you just did in that moment, where you're like, hey, you know, of course, you were doing that. And that's actually at the that is the this first step in a getting that part of you to step back a little bit and to not always feel like they need to be at the front of you know how you're thinking and acting, and also potentially inviting them to say, hey, you know what? You can actually get off the bus now, like, maybe you served a purpose for a good chunk of my life, but now you don't actually anymore. And so, yeah, so I hope that helps in that, you know, asking yourself, well, what's the alternative? Yeah, you could also ask yourself, what part of me is afraid to forgive myself, right? Because that part might be like, Well, if you forgive yourself, you're going to be off the hook, Joey, and you should stay, you know, don't. Don't you ever think that that is something that should be, you know, that's kind of that, you know, we can, we can have a separate conversation about about your all your parts, but, and then, of course, what I'm, what I what I'm most passionate about. Yes, there's the awareness of these kind of unhelpful parts that have been around for a while, but there's the bringing online and onto our bus, so to speak, the new parts, which is self compassion, cultivating these new, grounded, mindful, compassionate parts of ourselves that are here for our thriving and actually get what it means to be human, right?

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Joey Odom  49:42  

Gosh, that is beautiful. I want to segue just for a couple minutes. Can we talk? And you and I, we originally connected when it came to screens, and I would love to hear you talk you run your decreased phone time challenge. And this is something that's that's near and dear to you we talked just about in all. All of this, maybe specifically when it comes to mindfulness. How do you believe that our technology, our phones, which let's just acknowledge as a baseline, they're good. We both have smartphones. We're not getting rid of them like let's just accept that that's good. But how can we how are you seeing phones and technology interfere with this mindfulness and maybe, maybe contribute to some of our dysregulation.

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Sarah Harmon  50:22  

I've done a lot of free challenges and things out there over the years. I did a decrease your phone time challenge recently, which is, you know, when we reconnected, and it was the most, it was the biggest response I've had to anything. Well, it struck a chord for moms, because we're all, I think we all had this moment of Ick. I'm like, I'm disgusted in my habits, and I don't know how to change them, you know. And so the decrease your phone time challenge was this, you know, in mindfulness, there's a wonderful invitation and phrase called begin again. It was this, begin again moment to reset. And one of the things that I would say every single parent I talk to is like, I don't have enough time. I don't have time for myself, right? This is a reality, but also very much something that we're kind of reinforcing. And then, as you know, if we look at our screen time and we say, well, actually you spent, you spent five hours on the phone every day last week, five hours. That's 25 hours of the week. And you know, as you said, discernment, this is one of the questions I we don't want to vilify these phones like I want to be on my phone for certain reasons, but if I'm saying I don't have time for myself and I'm spending 25 hours a week on my phone, that's actually, there's a disconnect there, yeah. And so I think getting the data on yourself and seeing it clearly now, again, we have to be mindful of what part of ourselves is looking at the data. If my Gina is looking at the data, my anxiety, she's going to be like, Oh my God. What's happening in my brain? How have I impacted my kids? Right? Anxiety, I'm like, in this stress response, if Beth my shame is looking at my data, she's like, You are the worst. How are you a mindfulness teacher? Like, are you kidding me? You're a fraud. Like, you shouldn't even be doing this podcast, you know? Like, she's, she's a real meanie, like and so I need to come at that from the lens of curiosity, be like, okay, and discernment, okay and kindness, right? This is where my my screen time is. And so it's getting in the way. We need to see it clearly. We know that, you know, we're getting mad at ourselves for, it's like alcohol. We're getting mad at ourselves for a product that is designed to keep us locked in. And so bringing in this awareness and kindness, and again, like the reality of the situation is such a great place to start. You know, that's huge. And, yeah, so that's kind of the basic, I would say. And then, you know, I think I love, I love Aro for so many reasons. I found Aro, and I, you know, I just think the community piece is so important, and this making it fun and bringing an element of playfulness to it really sets us up for success. And that was part of the challenge, is that we had this. There was a little bit, you know, there was a prize, there was community. Is everything, and we know that in parenting, but now we also know that with media and scrolling. Yeah, that's right, do it alone.

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Joey Odom  53:36  

I promised you 40 minutes, and I've taken nine extra minutes, but I feel this thing inside here that it's just like I and this is like an a segue to promotion, but it's really not that. It's like, okay, there's some things in here that you scratched on when it comes to mindfulness, when it comes to even hearing myself saying a few of the words, I recognize some feelings I didn't even I heard feelings that I didn't even recognize that I had. And so I think the question for people listening is okay, what do I do next? Like, what's next? What's the next step? And I don't, I actually am looking for promotion, because it's not as if you could give us this one silver bullet tip and everything would be great. But how can people engage more with you and get little bit more into the work and getting on the journey here? Yeah,

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Sarah Harmon  54:19  

you know, it's tricky as a mindfulness teacher, because everyone's looking for the quick fix. You know, we all want to do it faster and quicker, and parents, quote, unquote, don't have time. And as we've said multiple times, this inner work, this shifting our patterns of being and doing while it is absolutely possible, it is not a switch. And so I have a introductory series called mothering ourselves mindfully. 101 which is a great place to start. So you just go to the school of mom.com forward slash 101, that is a great place to start. But what I say about. My program. So my core program is called flourish, and it's 12 months for a reason, because this work takes time, and it is an integration focused program, like the modules and the foundation and the framework of what I've been teasing here, mindfulness, nervous system, healing, we talk about boundaries, pleasure, rest, right? All of that like it is worth the cost of the year. But I know moms, they're not going to do it right. I know myself. It's like, I'll listen to the podcast or read the book or read the TLDR, and I'll never do the prompts. I won't sit on the cushion. I will, you know, it's so it's an integration focused membership, because it's all about actually doing the thing that you know right? Yes. And so the promotion would be, dabble, learn about it from your I'm pointing to my forehead, my prefrontal cortex, the thinking part. But no, if you are looking for long, lasting change, the work in the body, the somatic work that healing work on the nervous system level, is a little more upfront work, but it is the most efficient way to when your kid does something, or your partner does something, or you're looking at yourself in the mirror, this is what I hear from my the woman at work, for me, they were like, I didn't have to try so hard. I just My reaction was different. You know, I didn't. I did the work up front so that the rooted patterning was different. I didn't try to think my way into a different way of being. I've shifted my my way that I feel it. So, yeah, start with 101, join us and flourish. And I always do have to give a plug for untethered, because I know there's going to be women listening who relate to my story with their mother. And you are not alone. There's, you know, a belief that sometimes we have a mother like no one else does. Mother's Day is the worst holiday for some of us, even though we're moms, and that program specifically is so healing. It's an incredible community. So you can check that out at the school, mom.com

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Joey Odom  57:02  

what is an appropriate way if we, let's say you're, you're a husband who's heard this and you think, Gosh, my wife could really benefit from this, but the last thing you want to do is say, oh, you should do this, or, Oh, you really need this, right? That's a good way to that's a good way to earn yourself some nights on a couch. So what if you what is, what is a way to introduce this gently? If you do think, like, Okay, I think my wife could benefit from this.

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Sarah Harmon  57:27  

Yeah, I think it's this concept of, like, getting to the root of, like, a huh? Like, maybe we're working so hard, spinning at the surface trying to Band Aid some of these symptoms. And, wait a second, it's like couples therapy. When we therapists term peel the onion down, you know, at the what's at the heart of our dynamic? I think this opens up that conversation of, like, wait a second, let's explore the root of of what we're struggling with and what we ultimately desire, yeah. And I think that's a bit more of an in and saying, you know, this resonated for me, yeah, maybe it would for you, too. Not you should watch this,

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Joey Odom  58:10  

yeah, yeah. And maybe for yourself, like, Hey, maybe I need a little bit of work. I mean, that's maybe a good place to start, beginning with yourself, you

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Sarah Harmon  58:17  

know, you're modeling this is what I'm gonna do, you know, I'm actually going to explore the nervous system, or I'm going to read, you know, the internal family systems book as a spouse, or, you know, whatever it is. And then you just bring that's modeling, right? You bring the person along. Another

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Joey Odom  58:31  

good place to start is just watch inside out too. It's just the great ifs model, right? I mean, what a great movie that is. Yeah. Okay, so I want everybody to go to the school of mom.com and you can go, you can navigate through, whether it's on the Tethered or flourished, or 101, and just begin, just dabble. And then maybe for the listener, maybe just, maybe just take a first step right now, I know that's daunting, but you don't have to do the whole thing now. Let's just take a first step. Maybe roll in 101, get some of those resources and begin to just continue to take steps. But that's a school of mom.com people can also follow you on Instagram at the dot School of mom, Sarah, thank you as my voice cracks, thank you for a great conversation. Thank you for your work. Very grateful for it. I feel like I'm going to want to go, go decompress here, be mindful, maybe take a walk outside to process, but this was wonderful for me, and I know for our listeners, too.

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Sarah Harmon  59:24  

Thank you so much joy. Thank you for everything you do. You are changing the lives of so many, and I can't wait to have a begin again moment with my Aro.

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Joey Odom  59:32  

I love that. Begin Again. I love that. Oh, and my little mantra to myself that I'm gonna try is just telling myself that I'm an Azalea. It was Azaleas to take three years, right? Yeah, be the Hey, I'm an Azalea. It's gonna take me three years. It's taking me time that'll be actually, if my wife says, hey, you need to clean up your mug, I'll be like, Honey, I'm gonna Azalea. I'll get to it in

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Sarah Harmon  59:50  

three years. And don't say that, because then she'll

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Joey Odom  59:52  

really come for me. Okay, got it? Okay, I got it.

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Sarah Harmon  59:56  

Maybe just buy her some azaleas. And that's

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Joey Odom  59:58  

a very good idea. I liked. Yeah, Sarah, thank you.

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Sarah Harmon 1:00:02  

Thank you. Joey,

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Joey Odom  1:00:05  

hey, I'll leave you with what Sarah and I said at the very end, if you feel like it's taken you a while to get something right, if you feel like you keep messing up, just tell yourself I'm an Azalea. What she said is an azalea can't bloom for three years, so these things necessarily take time. They have to take time. There's not a quick fix, but let's continue to take those little steps right in the meantime, and it's going to take a while to get it right. Let's be kind to ourselves. Let's not judge ourselves. And if you like what you heard from Sarah, please just go check out the school of mom and learn a little bit more. Take your next best step. You don't have to get it all right. I know for me, I want to do everything at once, or I may not even start something, because I want to have it all done, or I want to look at all the implications we're just talking about, taking your first step, if this is something that would be helpful for you. Thank you to Sarah Harmon for joining us. I hope you enjoyed that conversation again. Go check out the school of mom.com. If you'd like more information.

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